Transcript. A 50-page transcript of the dialogue, January 22, 1973, edited by Mr. Russell Shaw entitled, "Just War and Pacifism. " ~ The dialogue is between Lane, Zahn, Lyons, Murray, Komonchak, Dougherty, Jennings, Durkin, Finn, Hehir, and Hamilton. Lyons brings up that "we are talking about the state going to war, not about military force as it is used in many other cases. Also, when you talk about the individual, that is simply conscientious objection. That is not what we call pacifism. We go along with conscientious objection on the part of the individual. We have got to talk about pacifism as meaning opposition to war as an activity of the state--the state going to war, not a person being drafted." Lane states "We agree that the state must always proceed morally, and we make no defense of the immoral judgments of the state. But, we must separate the judgment of particular issues from the principles, rights and duties of the state and of the obligations of citizens to this state.